TCP/IP services on old Mac’s have always my interest. After running a web server on my Plus I shifted to a FTP server on my Macintosh 512Ke. This Mac has 1024 K memory on board and a 800K disk drive. It is able to run System 6.0.8 at maximum. Even booting with minimal boot disk with System 7.0 is not possible.
The 512Ke is connected to an AppleTalk network bij a DaynaPort EhterPrint localtalk convertor. This makes it able to connect the LocalTalk printer port to Ethernet. There is not TCP/IP bridging possible so I have to use IPNetrouter on my Quadra as bridge.

As FTP server I’m using the build in one in NCSA Telnet 2.7b4. You can start it under Edit / Preferences / FTP Server. I’m using it with no users and no password. This is the second choice.
It boots at the background.




Now you can connect to the server on the IP adres where it is running. In my case it is 192.168.60.3. I’m using the standard ftp client on my Slackware Linux box…. command line…ftp.






As you can see it connect and you see a directoy listing. Up and downloads also work. Connecting with a web browser also works, but not all the time:





The program needs 540K to work with but I tested it also with 200K. I guess it must be also possible to run it on a standard 512K.

I made some small php scripts to interact with the server. This is very stable. Maybe I will try to build or reengenier a compleet up and download agent for this server in php one day!

You can test it yourself if you go with your browser to:

http://mac.vanegten.com/ftp.php
You can edit a file and upload it to the FTP server. It will be nice if visit the pages and leave a note…

I will leave the 512Ke online this weekend. If an error occurs I have to restart the FTP server.. so don’t expect high preformance!

Cool stuff!

Your Mac 512Ke has 1024K of RAM? Sounds like it might have been upgraded to a Mac Plus!

Hmm ...

upgraded to a Plus

I was so concentrated on my FTP server that I didn't look to much at the specs of this Mac...
But after a quick inspection of this 512 and my notes about it I found out that its NOT a 512Ke... It is a 512K.. no e.
The serial is F50702VM0001P. The serial decoder says:

Your European Macintosh 512 (M0001P), with serial number F50702VM0001P, was the 97th manufactured during the 7th week of 1985 in Fremont, CA.

From a internal inspection I had notes. The extra RAM is solderd on the board and I could read the letters DPS. The back case also says Macintosh 512K.

About the FTP server... Please do me a favour and visit http://mac.vanegten.com/ftp.php
I would love to see some traffic on this...... Macintosh 512K

When you go to "About the Finder" it shows 1024K?

Yes.... 1024K
This is a screen shot:



You can download this picture, screen512k, also from the FTP server....
http://macintosh.vanegten.com/ftp.php

Interesting.

Are the serial ports (modem and printer) rectangular (DB-9) or round (DIN-8)?

Is there a SCSI port?

This is likely an upgraded 512K, with an aftermarket RAM upgrade, not a Plus, since the back of his case says 512K, so it would not accommodate the Plus port configuration. Would love to see a picture of that logic board that soldered the 1MB RAM to the original board, rather than a piggy-backed daughter board. On a stock 512K that would require some fancy multiplexing!

Sorry to say Mactjaap, for all ostensible purposes you are more than likely running a Mac Plus with 128K ROMs, despite what the case says. So, while still impressive, it's quite easy to get a Plus serving up files on the Internet. Much harder to get a 512K of any sort online. That extra 512K of RAM may be helping you more than you realize.

Yes it is not a Plus board. Two DB-9 connectors...
The motherboard also looks old. It has 1983 written on it, just like my 128K.

I have some pictures. Does anyone knows what kind of extention DPS is?

The back:


Motherboard









Numbers on motherboard

LB027400002865

1983 630-0101

Technically maybe the same as a Plus...but still a 512k....

Very interesting.

Definitely has a third party memory upgrade. You also mentioned it was using a 800K floppy drive, so that would mean the ROM has been upgraded as well.

Not quite a Mac Plus, but not a Mac 512K anymore either. The Mac 128K and 512K are inherently defined by their memory. Like was mentioned earlier, the 1024K of RAM may be helping you out more than you realize.

That being said, you have a very unique machine there. I've never seen anything quite like it, but other members on here may have.

Sorry to break it to you mactjaap, but in addition to 1MB RAM, you are also running 128K ROMs, which for all practical purposes makes this a Mac Plus without SCSI, which could be easily added (and supported by Apple) with a Dove Mac Snap card. It is "technically" an upgraded 512K, but functionally it is a Mac Plus. To advertise it as anything else would be false advertising. I had a 68040 Duo 280c which I upgraded with a Power PC 2300 logic board. So is it still a 280c, or is it now a 2300, despite what the case says? You no longer have a 512K. Period. You are running a base model Plus without SCSI. And the Plus is just not that impressive for this exercise as it has been done many times before. Don't get me wrong, i'ts great to Have any Mac this old operating as a web server from a floppy disk, but No new ground is being broken here.

I've not seen a D.P.S. RAM card before, but there were literally dozens of companies during 1984 through 1986 who were trying to capitalize on unofficial and unsupported RAM upgrades for the 128K & 512K, competing mostly on price and to a lesser extent quality of the upgrades. Yours is most likely a late model card which required 512K base RAM and the 800K drive upgrade kit, to boost it to 1MB to 4MB configurations. Actually fairly common. RAM was expensive in those days so, even a minimal upgrade to the bring it up to the functional equivalent of a base model Mac Plus 1MB was HUGE, and likely the most common. Apple did not even start offering 2MB Plus & SE base configurations until 1988.

As far as your server, the program "requires" 540K to work, and while it may work with 200K, it may also require 128K ROMs, which is REALLY doing more for you than you realize. Also, how are you reducing the available RAM? Are you using a RAM cache? if so, realize the Program may actually be utilizing portions of that cache, or even disk caching to work around your imposed limitations. The fact remains you have 1MB RAM installed. And how much free space is on the disk? And here's another consideration for you: you say you are running 6.0.8 as a maximum, what is the minimal System configuration you have tested it with? The stock 512K will not run any system higher than 4.1 which may also be a limiting factor as well, keeping the base model at a minimum of 512Ke, which was released AFTER the Plus!

But since you brought up System 7, it requires more than 1MB RAM to boot, so even an early stock base model Plus or SE configuration would not boot from a System 7 800K Disk Utility disk.

Bottom line - you really should test this with an actual 512Ke (with only 512K physical RAM) installed before you make the claim you are running a 512Ke server, or at a minimum disclose the upgrade to 1024K RAM.

I think I have a differnet view on this. The Macintosh is a 512K. It has the motherboard, case, analog board of a 512K. But it has been adjusted. Probably somewhere between 1985 and 1987 the machine is upgraded. The DPS expantion is added, with the 128K ROMS and a 800K disk drive. If I would tell anyone what kind of computer it is I would tell him it like this. And yes...that makes it capacibilities the same as an Macintosh Plus.

My experiment is not about running a web server on a floppy. It is about running a FTP server on a minimal Macintosh with System. My first proof of concept is done on the upgraded 512K. Until now I was not able to run any kind of TCP/IP server below 7.0. I´m not talking about all kind of applications, but only about a TCP/IP service where the Macintosh act as server, not as client.
FTP is a different protocol than HTTP. FTP is already from the ´70
(Bhushan, Abhay, "A File Transfer Protocol", RFC 114 (NIC 5823), MIT-Project MAC, 16 April 1971.)
http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc114.html

I agree that it is nice to see how low we can go
So maybe it is a good idea to see on which system MacTCP will still work
It is also nice to see if this works on an actual non modified 512K. When I think about it... I'm beginning to have my doubts... but it would be fun to test!
Maybe someone with unmodified one can test?

I think the misunderstanding about the 1024K is because I thought all 512Ke had 1024K on board. Now I learned that thats not the case.
For the record...my article didn't claim it run on 512K only. And I'm not out for some kind of medal, I'm just having fun with my Macintoshes and like to share this with other people so we all learn how to do things on our Macs....

mactjaap wrote:It is also nice to see if this works on an actual non modified 512K.

And a unmodified 512Ke, since this is essentially operating as a Plus. Since you have a Plus, try reducing the RAM to 512K and see if your 6.0.8 server disk will still work. That will settle question.

Either way, I'm pretty sure there are solutions for running TCP on System 6. My point is not to take anything away from you, and I know we all appreciate new solutions to the same problems. I think the real point of my post is to confirm whether you can do it with only 512K RAM, which is what you suggest you are doing by calling it a 512Ke, but not actually doing since it has 1MB RAM. That's all I'm saying.

Yes! It is a good idea to see if this concepts also works on an unmodified 512K. First
on 512K with 128K ROM (512Ke) and if that works on a pure 512K.

I'm thinking on three ways of doing this:

- Try to setup an old boot disk with a System version prior to System 6 with
MacTCP. The oldest MacTCP I have is version 1.1.1. I have to find out or
hear from other users what System can be used with this version of MacTCP.

- Try to reduce memory with a tool like RamDisk. Or RAM cache...

- Replace the current motherboard with an other one I have. This is a
Macintosh 512K board with the DOVE SCSI snapboard. If you ony install the small board the motherboard has only 512K

I hope I get some spare time around Christmas to do this. Anyone with a pure 512K is invited to test also!

I'm now shutting down the 512K (1024K.... ). It is been online for 4 days in a row whitout any problems.

I would chose the other 512K board with the Dove Mac Snap SCSI card. That is a 512Ke configuration since the Dove board requires the 128K ROMs. As I said before, a RAM disk could still be used for disk caching by the software, and not give a true picture. Then if that works, try it with System 4.1, though I've not heard of any TCP software that didn't require a minimum of System 6, and if that works, then 64K ROMs.

Mac128 is right... NSCA Telnet is absolute not possible on a Mac with 512K memory.


However...while experimenting I discovered two very interesting TCP/IP matters for old Mac's

1) I got the FTP server from NSCA Telnet 2.5 working over SLIP (serial line internet protocol) on a null modem cable. So no network card or Appletalk and still connected to the Internet with a real TCP/IP connection.

2) I got TOPS Terminal working on a 512K/800K 128K ROM Mac. So..yes! On 512K only!
Running on System 4.2 and with the help of IPNetrouter. A full Tenet and FTP client. So without any Fastpath router hardware.



I will make two separate posting (somewhere in the comming weeks...) wwith pictures, etc to explain how.

Very cool.

I'd love to see how you configure IPNetrouter to do that. I've never known where to start with that app!

FTP server now running on version NCSA Telnet 2.2 with NCSA TCP/IP stack!
Back in the time machine... This version is from 7 may 1988

see it live on

http://macplus.vanegten.com/ftp.php

And shut down again...

Mactjaap - I think you have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, that while it is possible to do this on a 512Ke, it is not practical to do so. While a noble experiment, it is just one more endorsement that even the 512Ke was still too limited to survive much longer than it actually did.

This tread is about how things worked with FTP and TCP/IP some 20 or more years ago. Not really about proving all kind of things or state that the 512Ke is the best Macintosh ever made.

I’m interested in old Macintosh models and TCP/IP, so I experiment with the applications of that period.
I started with the FTP server in NCSA Telnet 2.7b4 and now I got it working with NCSA Telnet 2.2 which is from 1988! It is fascinating to see that this software had already a full working FTP server in it. It is also great to get it working and experiment with it. That’s all…..

For people who are also interested in working with older Telnet / FTP servers programs I made a image file with all the versions and some text files I collected over the time.

http://macintosh.vanegten.com/TELNET.img.hqx

I will try to find more versions of the software and try to find out in which version the FTP server was introduced. If people have copies of older (NSCA) Telnet or MacTelnet…please share them …

The problem is, you two have different views about it. While everyone is going to have thier own personal opinion or view about the situation, My view is this: I find this very interesting considering I never could do much with a 512k, but at least i know TCP/IP is possible and FTP/NCSA Telnet is possible

mactjaap wrote:This tread is about how things worked with FTP and TCP/IP some 20 or more years ago. Not really about proving all kind of things or state that the 512Ke is the best Macintosh ever made.

My appologies if you misunderstood my point ... However, you have on other threads made something of a point that you are doing all of this on a 512K, even splitting hairs over calling it a 512K instead of what it actually was, a 512Ke with 1MB upgrade. So again, my appologies if I am not entirely clear on what exactly it is you are trying to accomplish. I did not mean to pigeon-hole your efforts. I appreciate them as much as anyone here. Nevertheless, you have proven, for better or worse, whatever else your intention, what others have proven and suspected before, that the stock 512K is not capable of this level of TCP/IP service. And since you are using a 512Ke, with the 128K ROM, that 512K is simply not enough RAM. So it is hyperbole to suggest I meant anything else by my comments, especially that the "512Ke is the best Macintosh ever made" LOL, where did that come from!?

Ok! Point taken. No need to argue about it. We all want to do our best for working with old Mac’s. I will try to be more precise what I’m doing and why.

For now…. I would be happy to try NSCA Telnet Version 2.0. That version is explicitly for the Macintosh 512K. I got the release notes from one of our forum members. It is probably from 1987

Features included in version 2.0 of NCSA Telnet :
-----------------------------------------------
DARPA standard telnet Built-in standard FTP server for file transfer

Hardware required:
-----------------
PC: IBM PC,XT, AT or compatible. 3COM 3C501 Etherlink board.
IBM RT PC Baseband adapter support soon.
Ungermann-Bass NIC board support soon.
MICOM NI5210 Ethernet board support soon. Mac : Macintosh 512K, Plus, SE or Macintosh II.
Kinetics, Inc. FastPath, EtherSC or Etherport SE.
Kinetics gateway software or Stanford KIP (Croft) gateway software.
Support soon for Apple EtherTalk board and software for the Macintosh II.

Download release notes:

http://macintosh.vanegten.com/nsca-telnet-2.0-release.txt


Has anyone a copy of this version????

Telnet is a great FTP server! I've had it happily serving up files from my Plus' 40 MB external SCSI hard drive.

As far as FTP clients, I've had Terminal v1.5 on OS X 10.4 work with Telnet 2.6. What I'm having trouble with is finding a suitable client on my iPhone to work with my telnet server.

Anybody have any luck with this?

So far I've been experimenting with the apps GoodReader and FTP Client Pro.